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Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

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Rapid Rulings

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56% [56%] 

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zhouker
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Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by zhouker on 02.05.17 2:27

Regarding the 2 situations below:

1) Rapid Reincarnation on Pharzi, send out a creature, rapid goes to grave, activate pharzi's effect and return that SAME rapid back to hand.


2) Rapid reincarnation on Kryston, use Kryston's effect and send Velyrika out, search for Bajula, and finish Rapid's effect by evolving bajula on velyrika.

Which of the above situations work, or should both be allowed to work? Since it's the player who casted the spell and should be allowed to choose the order which the events occur?

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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by ELTP on 02.05.17 20:35

Both works just fine, but for Pharzi one usually prefers Transmogrify


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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by ohdeer on 11.05.17 18:15

Rapid Reincarnation used at Kyrstron, Lair Delver in combination with Velyrika Dragon and Uberdragon Bajula is pure awesomeness in TCG format plays, but it's quite hard to do, beacuse you need seven cards in your MZ, Kyrston in your BZ and both Rapid and Velyrika in hand. Anyway once it done it's cool play.


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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by OcaVan on 17.05.17 11:35

That would be a very cool situation indeed but it isn't that easy, but managable with enough draw/search effects.  
Those would be one of the situation i love this card game so much for. But tcg has also some broken combo's... but that's another topic.
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by xephon on 18.05.17 14:37

well, imo. u cant put searched bajula with reincarnation or kystron in the bz, because velyrika triggers at last.

1. spell triggers: by casting it placeing in the grave.
1.1. solve spells effect: sacrifce a cr.(2trigger), put another from the hand into bz. (3trigger)

2. sacrificed cr. triggers: by beeing destroyed
3. put-in-bz cr. triggers: search an evo
2.2. solve dieing effect: put a dragon from hand to bz. (could evolve velyrika with a bajula already in hand)
3.3. solve searching effect: put bajula in the hand.


ure only allowed to choose prioritys if multiple effects "triggers the same time" for example mass destruction on dieingeffects or mist rias+bronze armtribe.
reincarnations sacrifice and put effect doesnt happen the same time, ure not able to choose first put and then sacrifice.
but wotc judges can say "it does because we want to". wouldnt change my mind.


for pharzi, u can select a spell just casted in the grave, because the spellcard is in the grave after trigger the spell, before solving its effect.
but u cant select a spellcard from ur grave if the same spellcard let u select.
in general uve to do selection when effects triggers

if i expl. something wrong, feel free to correct.
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by ELTP on 18.05.17 22:36

You might xephon actually be right about the combination of Kyrstron and Reincarnation.

Spell's ability is resolved first so you destroy Kyrstron - it ability triggers and is put on hold - and put Velyrika in the battle zone and Velyrika's ability triggers and is put on hold. Now since 2 effects are on hold, the owner may choose in which order he uses the effects. So in this case, first you would choose to use Velyrika to search your deck for Bajula and then use Kyrstron to put Bajula into the battle zone for no cost.

I'm not totally certain about if abilities can be on hold and have the same level of priority if they are triggered during the same spell but in different parts, but I recall so.

Pharzi shouldn't have any problems of being combined with Transmogrify or Reincarnation as you also stated.


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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth on 03.07.17 10:35

@zhouker wrote:

1) Rapid Reincarnation on Pharzi, send out a creature, rapid goes to grave, activate pharzi's effect and return that SAME rapid back to hand.


Kyrstron combos isn't a secret, it does work because Kyrstrons effect triggers when destroyed.

The Pharzi variant does NOT work, you can either get another spell or another rapid from the grave, not the same. Rapid first hits the grave, when all actions of the card are done. Beforehand, the card is not in the grave and cannot be grabbed by Pharzis effect
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth on 14.11.17 21:18

@ELTP wrote:
@Bronze-Arm Sloth wrote:
Well sorry but I’m not in your finish community and thusi did never read about that.
For me they are unclear rulings for sure.... we always did it the other way,because no rule did entirely describe this.
We have discussed this matter on DM Reborn before and you were involved. But it's okay, this ruling is rather confusing especially since Wiki has it wrong. I don't mind explaining and discussing these kind of things every now and then. This helps to identify misplays and also prevents those from happening.

This is getting off-topic here. If you want to discuss on Reincarnation still, please do it here.

Thanks for hinting me @ELTP, totally forgot about this thread.
So as we already talked about, from your opinion and hints on rulings, would you say, Pharzi recycle with Trans and Rapid is probably the best thing to do in specific combos, to have the spell back in hand?

Because everytime i brainstormed for ideas i was upset, that Pharzi does not support this, now you gave me a lot mire options to optimize the abusivest plays with the spells and Pharzi:) thanks for that!
Now i can finally prefer Pharzi in a lot more decks for options!

So it is like this:
Pay cost
Cast spell (from hand directly to grave)
Solve effects (chained ones can be solved in wished order, first owns, last the effects chained from opponent)
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by ELTP on 15.11.17 11:16

@Bronze-Arm Sloth wrote:So as we already talked about, from your opinion and hints on rulings, would you say, Pharzi recycle with Trans and Rapid is probably the best thing to do in specific combos, to have the spell back in hand?

Because everytime i brainstormed for ideas i was upset, that Pharzi does not support this, now you gave me a lot mire options to optimize the abusivest plays with the spells and Pharzi:) thanks for that!
Now i can finally prefer Pharzi in a lot more decks for options!

So it is like this:
Pay cost
Cast spell (from hand directly to grave)
Solve effects (chained ones can be solved in wished order, first owns, last the effects chained from opponent)

Based on what people have experienced in the Finnish DM community, you can't really go wrong by combining Pharzi with Transmogrify early on. And if you use a decent amount of spells, Pharzi is a great option for Daidalos decks utilizing "put in grave" abilities of small creatures, too.

Don't remember seeing Pharzi used that much with Rapid Reincarnation, but I'd imagine it to work rather well since Pharzi is only a 2 mana creature.

This sentence on DM Wiki contains the key reasons why instant Pharzi + Transmogrify works:
"They are a card type that that are cast, have their abilities happen and are then put into your graveyard immediately afterwards."

Yup, that's the right order: first you pay the cost (if possible), then resolve the spell and immediately put into your grave, then resolve the triggered effects (yours first, IF AND ONLY IF it's your turn. Otherwise, your opponent's triggered abilities are resolved first.).


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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth on 15.11.17 17:29

@ELTP wrote:
Based on what people have experienced in the Finnish DM community, you can't really go wrong by combining Pharzi with Transmogrify early on. And if you use a decent amount of spells, Pharzi is a great option for Daidalos decks utilizing "put in grave" abilities of small creatures, too.

I already used in in several decks, Daidalos based ones for examples as well :-)


@ELTP wrote:
This sentence on DM Wiki contains the key reasons why instant Pharzi + Transmogrify works:
"They are a card type that that are cast, have their abilities happen and are then put into your graveyard immediately afterwards."

But this sentence says it the other way around??
ABILITES HAPPEN and THEN put into your graveyard IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS

@ELTP wrote:
Yup, that's the right order: first you pay the cost (if possible), then resolve the spell and immediately put into your grave, then resolve the triggered effects (yours first, IF AND ONLY IF it's your turn. Otherwise, your opponent's triggered abilities are resolved first.).

I know. Was talking about the own turn.
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by ELTP on 15.11.17 21:24

@Bronze-Arm Sloth wrote:But this sentence says it the other way around??
ABILITES HAPPEN and THEN put into your graveyard IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS
Spell's all effects are used and afterwards the spell is immediately put into graveyard. Then the triggered abilities are used (they can't resolve while spell is being resolved)


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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth on 16.11.17 20:44

So actually you would/should and could say: the spell is paid and put to grave then solved physically playedwise Smile
Alright i think we had found the final point! Thanks man
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by nitrox Yesterday at 8:21

@Bronze-Arm Sloth wrote:So actually you would/should and could say: the spell is paid and put to grave then solved physically playedwise Smile
Alright i think we had found the final point! Thanks man

No, doesn't sound right! The spell is resolved completely, and THEN it goes to the grave.

What ELTP meant was that the spell is resolved, goes to grave, and then the triggered ability of any creature(not the spell) is used.

Sol Galla has a clear example of triggered abilities being used AFTER the spell btw, if anyone is still confused about Pharzi's trigger. You have to finish what the spell says before using Pharzi's ability.
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth Yesterday at 20:28

So pharzi is not able to get the spell back immediately? I guess so he is, depending on ELTPs explaination.
I know that pharzis effect comes last, but thats the good thing, the spell is in grave before hand.

But if you say „you have to finish what the spell says before using pharzi“ what is with Kyrstron and the Bajula combo then?
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by nitrox Today at 9:03

If the spell killed Pharzi, it will go to grave and then Pharzi's ability will activate - so Pharzi can get it back. Atleast this is how OCG rules work.

As for using Rapid on Kyrston, the combo still works as @ELTP already explained. You finish Rapid reincarnation first(to put Velyrika), so now Kyrston and Velyrika's abilies are still to be done, you use Velyrika first to get Bajula then use Kyrston to summon it.
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Re: Rapid Reincarnation + Pharzi/Kryston

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth Today at 13:02

So everything is told as i said, why did you say, „it doesn’t sound right“.
Everything was cleared. I think this topic is closed now

    Current date/time is 18.11.17 13:57