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(TCG) Wise Starnoid

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LordSommerhill
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(TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LordSommerhill on 20.09.17 10:25

Here is my version of Wise Starnoid. As you can see it is quite standard, but with a few changes. Yes i know, i run no Aqua Hulcus. You should have some draw power in addition to Energy Stream, so i chose Magris instead of Hulcus, even though Hulcus is the better of those two in itself. The reason is that Tajimal is my preferred play on turn 3, and the deck has no other good turn 4 plays except for Kolon. You could run both Hulcus and Magris, but both of those together with Tajimal is too much off this decks topic. You want as many materials for Starnoid as possible, so that you can easely summon many Starnoids per duel, something this build succeeds with. It is not rare to summon 3-4 Starnoids per game with this deck, unless you're playing against Rush or Aggro, which are easy matchups for this deck anyway. Therefore i chose Magris as my extra draw power.
Another change i made was to switch out Tulk the Oracle for Pharzi the Oracle. Pharzi costs 1 more mana, which has never been a problem, and other than that it is better than Tulk in every way. It is still very cheap bait, can trade with other 1000 creatures, and it lets you recycle your Streams and Holy Awes, or even Miraculous Snares if you need quick removal. Tulk loses against every other creature in tcg, has no effect, and just sucks outside of being cheap. It does you no good against aggro or rush either, as it is too small and useless. Pharzi also creates dilemmas for your opponents, if they want to kill it to prevent you from summoning Starnoid, since killing it will most of the time let you take back a spell to your hand. All in all i have had much success with Pharzi, and i will never use Tulk again in any deck.
The final change i wanted to make, was to put in 2 Miraculous Snare. In my opinion this is a very underrated card. This deck doesn't care if your opponent gets an extra shield or two, as it either destroys its opponents with a huge margin, or loses early on. Winning late game against this deck (not by deckout) is almost impossible, as it usually sits behind 10+ shields, and a huge board presence. All it needs to do then is pull a Holy Awe, or recycle one with Pharzi, and it can go for game before it decks out. So Miraculous Snare is essentially a 3 mana instant removal, which is very nice, as Light/Water doesn't have any other removal like that. Very nice to get rid of any one creature that gives you a hard time.




All in all a very solid deck, that does well in all matchups except against Bombazar, and usually always wins if it can survive the first 5-6 turns. Lets hear some opinions!
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Bronze-Arm Sloth
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth on 21.09.17 7:08

If you play ocg i would take Qurian instead of Hulcus and Magris.
I like your version too! If you are into exotic things, maybe try 1-2 teched Emperor Marolls for Coril abusing Smile
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LordSommerhill
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LordSommerhill on 21.09.17 9:27

Ah yeah, i don't know much about OCG, but i checked out Qurian and it would have worked very well in this deck. Don't know if you noticed, but there are 45 cards in this deck, rather than 40. This does sacrifice some consistency, but i did it on purpose to decrease the chance of decking out. With all the draw power, once you start swinging with several Starnoids at the same time, the deck will be thinned down rather quickly. Therefore i added a few extra cards, which has been working well.
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LOGIC on 06.11.17 20:05

I see that you like Tajimal, but having in mind that you already have a strong early game and good number of trigers, you could also try runing Syrion instead of Taji. (strong body and evo bait).
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LordSommerhill
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LordSommerhill on 07.11.17 8:50

@LOGIC yeah Syrion is ok for bait. I actually ran x2 Syrions and x2 Tajimals in the first build of this deck. But Syrion came short too often, and i lost too easely to Bombazar, and therefore i replaced them with 2 more Tajimals. Tajimal is just too good not to be maxed out in any light/water deck in my opinion. Especially in my meta where there are Bombazars everywhere. I don't know how much more i want to change this deck though, as it is pretty darn great the way it is right now. Possibly the best non Bombazar deck i have ever made, only competing with my Marino Control deck. I can always test new things out though.
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Coriler on 07.11.17 9:38

@LOGIC wrote:I see that you like Tajimal, but having in mind that you already have a strong early game and good number of trigers, you could also try runing Syrion instead of Taji. (strong body and evo bait).

as well as pre turn 5 ill. merfolk suppport that isnt killed by cheap fire kill.
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LordSommerhill on 07.11.17 9:44

@Coriler Are you suggesting that i take in Illusionary Merfolk? Im not worried at all about cheap fire kill though, or about rush or aggro in general. This deck never loses to that. It loses to Bombazar, and sometimes against Marino or Phal (usually only by deckout, and that is rather rare). Merfolk is great when you get it off, but it doesn't really do anything to help you out on the field, and it competes with Corile and Starnoid on the fifth turn, which are both better cards in my opinion. I feel like the 5th turn very often is one of the most crucial turns in a game.

Edited by ELTP on 14.11.-17 to be more appropriate
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LOGIC on 08.11.17 20:22

Well, didn't now the meta there is full of "Bombazars". In that case, keep a strong defense using Taji(since it's great vs Bombazar). I didn't think at that cause here in Romania, almost nobody plays Bombazar at all. It is generaly viewed as a ridiculous card. We call it "Noobbazar", cause it's very easy to win almost all games.
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LordSommerhill on 09.11.17 8:50

@LOGIC Yeah Bombazar is a pain in the butt. I do find it fun to try to find decks that can beat the most overpowered Bombazar Blue decks, as it is not impossible. Wise Starnoid is also in my opinion one of the better cards in tcg. It is just soooo powerful and gamechanging when it comes out. And x4 Starnoids is even better. This deck is very consistent, very fun to play with, and usually beats all non-Bombazar decks.
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Enigmafiend on 09.11.17 11:16

You do realize that english cards are illegal in a deck with japanese cards and vise versa
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LordSommerhill on 09.11.17 11:31

@Enigmafiend well, in a game that died more than 10 years ago, i really don't care about that Razz
Everybody who still plays TCG knows the picture and effect of every relevant card from the 12 tcg sets anyways, so it really doesn't matter. I buy a lot of TCG cards in japanese on purpose, as they are cheaper and often exists in shiny versions which look better. My Tajimals for instance, look way better in shiny (like any card does), and everybody knows its effect, so the fact that i cant read japanese really doesn't matter. If TCG was still alive, and there were tournaments with official rules for that stuff, then i would care. But as long its a dead game, that really doesn't mean anything to me.
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Coriler on 09.11.17 12:41

maybe your viewpoint is influenced by that bombazar meta. i dont run syrion in my starnoids i was just adding some pros of syrion that LOGIC didnt add. but i would definitely run 2 instead of maxed tajimals.

yes corile is a great play on turn 5 IF your opp has a good target. if not, ill merfolk can fill your hand which you need for surviving mass kill and discard. also you can spam the field with cheap stuff later. if you drop starnoid on turn 5 without streaming or merfolking on turn 5 vs control and get hit by pit or a following corile you are in trouble and will easily get controlled the next turns.
also starnoid turn 5 needs an emeral and a lightbrinegr already on the field. insta lose vs clamp? shields you get with starnoid vs control will be burned or broken in a few turns when they have controlled you.

from your bombazar aggro thread:
"Control decks usually always lose against Starnoid, unless they can make it deck out. Rush and Aggro usually has no chance either..."
"This deck is very consistent, very fun to play with, and usually beats all non-Bombazar decks."
you wrote that starnoid usually wins vs controls or any other deck. this couldnt be farther from the truth(vs control). starnoid is weak vs controls. especially RUB since you will get controlled and then bolmeteus will eat your shields.

your starnoid version:
how can you pass up illusionary merfolk in a deck with 8 cyberlords when its one of if not the best draw in the game.(depending on scenarios of course). 4000 body draw THREE cards!!! not only that, that big body is perfect for an aggro deck. also you wrote here and  in my starnoid thread that pharzi should be always be played over tulk... i will get to that tulk vs pharzi later.

if you are interested in the "true meta" without bomb maybe duel someone in the finnish or singaporean communities. both of them have the most followers i think. duel me on OCTGN best of 5 using your starnoid vs a control deck and you will see what i mean.

Edited by ELTP on 14.11.-17 to be more appropriate and to add structure
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by ELTP on 09.11.17 14:03

@Enigmafiend wrote:You do realize that english cards are illegal in a deck with japanese cards and vise versa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The night sky was calm as the serpent of time slithered through the clouds, none dared oppose Balesk Baj, none except the dragons
Actually, non-English cards are allowed in MtG TCG, so the same would most certainly be true for Duel Masters TCG. Source.

Since Duel Masters TCG is not official format anymore, you certainly are allowed to use non-English prints of cards. It's true that in OCG tournaments in Japan, you are not allowed to use non-Japanese cards, though.

@coriler
I would include the first part of the thread to the top 10 list or somewhere. I agree on that Bombazar meta is not really fun to play and it really shouldn't be brought up so much. It's clear that's it's the most powerful and anti-climatic card ever made in the history of DM, including OCG. Still, I don't mind seeing it in number one in most lists.

What comes to this Starnoid deck, I also think that Illusionary Merfolk should be added and instead of Pharzi and Tajimal I would run Syrion. Syrion is a nice combo with Kolon and Merfolk.


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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Coriler on 09.11.17 14:31

now to pharzi:
pharzi IS a great card. you i have builds with pharzi as well. pharzi needs a turn 3 stream to be REALLY good. not always achievable. if you drop pharzi turn 3 going second there will be a hulcus or a blocker most likely killing it if you swing. also pharzi -> snare is subpar vs most decks. early game you dont want to use snare most of the time. its great putting a very big threat (bolly) there but that means 1 more shields to deal with and  your opp surviving more turn. allowing cards of a higher mana curve ( apoc vise,plague soul etc.) your 2 mana pharzi coming out turn 3 without stream is subpar. rather swing a shield early with tulk.

in your build you run 4x pharzi with just 3 streams.. you could say dont swing. well you want to swing early. late game you do have the awe-retrieval which is great. you play pharzi with snare as well. which isnt that great TBH. tulk is a TURN ONE drop that can attack. not just a 1 mana drop. it gets killed by everything, yes but you dont have to swing if your opp has stuff if your opp has an "opening" you do. and he will most likely turn 1-2. you know braid claw and why its super strong turn 1? while tulk is very devastated by loco trigger and gets killed by everything else it doenst have to attackif a threat shows up. snipe a shield and stop, its still a deadly card. people always think its just about the mana cost. momentum created by playing cards early is key as well.

example: exorious vs gatling skyterror. why is exorious used in controls and gatling isnt? gatling has a lot of benefits over exorious. 7000 power instead of 4000+, not killable by blizzard, not easily tradeable in the opp turns ( a lot to trade with 4000), has double breaker even. sometimes exorious is dropped turn 7 and 8 when gatling is clearly better. the reason is because 1 turn earlier drop creates a lot of advantages. you get to do something. you also have turn 7 for other stuff.

pharzi is great. but i run only 2 streams as you can see. why would i run pharzi? id run 4x tulk and 2x pharzi in a 3-4x stream deck. or maxed pharzi in 40 card starnoid with 4x streams. different ratios and techs of those ratios influence each other.

Edited by ELTP on 14.11.-17 to be more appropriate and to add structure]


Last edited by Coriler on 09.11.17 14:48; edited 1 time in total
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LordSommerhill
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by LordSommerhill on 09.11.17 17:33

@Coriler i was busy at work earlier, but now i have time. So here is my real answer to you:

first of all, saying that my opinions are "wrong", is wrong in itself. They are opinions, and there are no set answers to these things, that are officially right. There are only opinions on these topics, that differ based on different experiences in different metas. No my opinions are not wrong, they are backed by a lot of testing.

Like i said, i play in a very topped and tryhard meta, with lots of Bombazars around (This may be negative yes, but that is irrelevant right now). Like Bombazar or not, it exists, is not banned and creates the best decks. So yes i obviously consider a Bombazar-influenced meta to be the best kind of meta (and i mean best as in optimalized, not the most fun to play in). So the cards and decks that do best in the most rough meta in the game, i will consider the best cards and decks (therefore the term toptier). Yes all this stuff is opinions, but my opinions are at least backed up by experience and are educated opinions. I care jack shit about weather people here like Bombazar or not. If you hate Bombazar and refuse to play against it, obviously other builds and cards will work differently in your meta....
Bombazar is the best card in the game, and creates the best decks. So then the meta i play in is more optimalized, more tryhard, maybe more boring in your opinion, and yes BETTER than the meta you play in. If your playing in a meta without Bombazar, then ofcourse more slow paced cards like Illusionary Merfolk will work better. In my tryhard meta however, spending your fith turn on just drawing cards, can kill you.... especially since the 5th turn often is the most crucial one against Bombazar. I am not interested in which cards work better in slower, slow-paced and worse metas. I am a tryhard Duel Masters player, and i solely care about what is effective in the most hellish meta you can imagine, because that is how you become better. This is why i also have no room for cards like Tulk (which i will get to later).

About my RUB deck post, that seems to bother you so much. I have played against and seen tons of different RUB builds, but just never got any motivation to build my own until now. So like i stated in my first RUB post, i just quickly put together and unfinished version, and then used testing and advice i got from others on the forum to make the final changes. No i didnt have Cranium Clamp or Corile in the beta, but i stated from the start that i was in the process of adding 2 Cranium Clamps (just waiting for 2 more copies to arrive from ebay). It was also the plan to add Corile all along, but i wasnt gonna waste my time creating a tryhard decklist immediately, when i could just throw a build together first, and then perfect it over time with testing and advice from other people who DO HAVE experience with this kind of deck. This is the best way to do it when you are new with the deck, and you know it.

About the Tulk vs Pharzi topic....
When i first built my Starnoid deck, i ran 4 Tulks instead of Pharzi. Pharzi was a card that had never even crossed my mind. After testing the deck over time, against Bombazar, Marino, FN Rush, RUB, Phal, Water, LW, DW etc, i just got more and more annoyed with how much Tulk just SUCKED! it just dies and dies and dies, and never takes anything with it. Sure you can NOT attack to have it survive, but is that a good plan in your head? So i started checking out the other cheap Light Bringers, and found Pharzi. I tried swapping the 4 Tulks for 4 Pharzis, and after just a couple of matches, i saw how much more useful Pharzi was. The effect is great when you get it off in the right situations, but the main reason i run Pharzi over Tulk today is not the effect, but the power. The fact that Pharzi atleast can take Locos, Emerals, Deadly Fighter, Quixotic etc with it, is more than enough to make it more useful as Starnoid bait than Tulk. Yes i have heard of Fire/Light Rush, but this is a Starnoid deck. In FL Rush and rush in general, you care not about the power, just trying to kill your opponents as fast as possible. This Starnoid deck is one of the best decks i have ever built, and can even do well in a fast Bombazar influenced meta. I never attack shields early on with this deck, unless im playing against Rush. This deck acts as a control deck, that spammes an extremely overpowered boss-creature, as well as broken cards such as Corile, and other great cards like Awe, Surfer, Emeral etc. The deck works great at executing this gameplan, and that is what i have experienced with it. I have tried both Illusionary Merfolk and Syrion in this deck, but no they are too slow paced when potentially facing Bombazar. So i will max out Tajimal instead, so that im prepared for the worst.
You think that Starnoid decks have trouble with control-decks? Sure it can have trouble with them, but the build that i have here, usually wins against both Marino, RUB and Phal, AS WELL as atleast having a chance against tryhard Bombazar decks.

So to finish this off:
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, or not liking my posts. But what pisses me off right now @Coriler , is you saying that "i dont seem to have much experience in general". Me and my community have been playing this game since it came out, constantly trying to beat each other, even if that means being as standard and tryhard as possible. You cant really have much more experience than that, since thats how long the game has existed. Sadly we dont have official tournaments anymore like before, but we still play this game and buy cards online, as if the game still existed. Just simply because this game is fantastic. You criticize my experience based on examples like "building a RUB deck without Corile and Clamp". Well if you had done your research properly, instead of telling me to do more research, you would se in the "Top 10 TCG card" list, that Corile and Clamp are number 2 and 3 on the list. So right there your statement is proven wrong and unreasoned. Cause yes, i know how great those cards are.....ofcourse i do! i just put together a quick skeleton for the deck first, and perfected it with the help of others on the forum and testing. About Illusionary Merfolk, no i dont think it is as good as you think. It is too slow and has too little immediate impact in a game with a card like Bombazar.
So no, the things i post and comment are not wrong! They are my educated opinions, coming from a tryhard meta. If anything they are more correct than an opinion coming from someone playing the game at a lower level in a less tryhard meta...

The other thing that pisses me off, is you saying that i make a fool out of myself for having Bombazar as the number one card on my list. How in the world did you create that sentence in your head? It is the best card??? So you and many others dont LIKE the card, and therefore i am a fool for saying it is the best card?? If you read my post, i very clearly wrote that i was stating the obvious. If you want to deny Bombazars existence, then stop scrolling down when you get to number 2 on the list, instead of calling me a fool for stating an fact. It is even a fact that cant be argued.

- No my posts in general are not wrong. They are educated opinions from a different point of view, so your critisizm is wrong.

- Yes i have experience, and lots of it.

- Bombazar exists and is the best card, so deal with it. Anyone stating that fact is right, and not a fool. Deny the cards existence, and you are playing the game at a lower competitive level.

- I built my first RUB deck in a very open and good way, which had a great end result.

- The Starnoid deck i have today works extremely well in almost all matchups, so i dont care if you dont like it. It works great, and that is what matters.

- i Build my decks preparing for the worst (aka Bombazar, Control decks and Rush). This way my decks will be best suited for any matchup they are thrown into, giving me the most optimalized result.

So now i have wasted an hour of my time answering all your criticizms, and without being rude for one second. I generally dont mind being criticized, but when you sit down and write a whole book about me being wrong, unexperienced and foolish, i get pissed off and i will defend myself. It pissed me off probably a little more than you meant it to do, but that is because you have not been reading my posts properly, and you really dont know enough about me to say these things.
I joined this forum after discovering it, because i still love this game, and because i want to expand its already small remaining community if possible. I am never rude to anybody here, and i always listen and try to help when i can. So i really hope i dont have to deal with this kind of ignorance and rudness again, cause then i will just delete my posts and leave the forum for good. By all means criticize me or disagree with me if you want to, but dont attack me or be rude.
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Bronze-Arm Sloth on 10.11.17 6:20

Just in short.
Stop these flamewars.
Actually its all about opinions here.
Some say the game is just maths, some say it’s all about hand advantages.
Some just criticize on decks and topdeck stuff.

Also wins and losses are not calculatable to any decks or how it is build.
There are so many ways to build the different decks.

So please stop this annoying crap here. Opinion are ok, but we don’t need to argue about this.
It is annoying me to read these things on pojo, and now we reawaken it on here?! No thanks

Btw did you mean „diehard“ or tryhard? Because seconds means „person wirh little talent“ which actually makes no sense at all


Last edited by Bronze-Arm Sloth on 10.11.17 14:42; edited 1 time in total
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Coriler on 10.11.17 14:34

you dont need to answer immedietly its all good. discussions like this are time and energy consuming, especialy after work.

first of all i apologize for being rude. i dont sugarcoat things and if i think you are ignorant i will tell you. i am aware no one likes to hear these things, but it irritiates me and others. i dont have anything personally against you, just the ignorance hurt to read...

the atmosphere in this forum needs to be friendly or people will post even less. so next time ill ignore stuff like this or write differently. anyways you where rude in your post towards me as well but i dont mind, we can say i "deserved it".

still the things you wrote where wrong again. that "opinion" game is lame:
"So then the meta i play in is more optimalized, more tryhard, maybe more boring in your opinion,
and yes BETTER than the meta you play in"
"Bombazar exists and is the best card, so deal with it. Anyone stating that fact is right, and not a fool. Deny the cards existence, and you are playing the game at a lower competitive level."
wow.

i already typed my answers/points to your arguments into a sheet but i dont think its worth arguing with you. ill answer later maybe.

Edited by ELTP on 14.11.-17 to add more structure
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by ELTP on 12.11.17 13:10

@Bronze-Arm Sloth wrote:Just in short.
Stop these flamewars.
Actually its all about opinions here.
Some say the game is just maths, some say it’s all about hand advantages.
Some just criticize on decks and topdeck stuff.

So please stop this annoying crap here. Opinion are ok, but we don’t need to argue about this.
It is annoying me to read these things on pojo, and now we reawaken it on here?! No thanks
You have a pretty good point there. Even if we don't really agree with somebody, there's no need to get heated and start shooting down other's arguments. Even in a rather mathematical game like Duel Masters, it's not healthy
to diminish other's point of views and card preferences. If their choices won't work, they'll see it. If they do work, you'll see it(:

Still, the discussion still seems to be rather level-headed here and it's great that you are able that maybe things got a bit out of a hand.


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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by Enigmafiend on 12.11.17 13:27

@eltp actually the official rulings call all tcg cards illegal to be in use with Japanese cards in torneies since tcg and ocg have diff rullings
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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by ELTP on 12.11.17 13:40

@Enigmafiend wrote:@eltp actually the official rulings call all tcg cards illegal to be in use with Japanese cards in torneies since tcg and ocg have diff rullings
Is that so. It would make sense and still non-Japanese cards would not be allowed. Thanks for the elaboration.


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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

Post by ELTP on 14.11.17 14:08

@LordSommerhill wrote:Bombazar is the best card in the game, and creates the best decks. So then the meta i play in is more optimalized, more tryhard, maybe more boring in your opinion, and yes BETTER than the meta you play in.

[-]

Bombazar exists and is the best card, so deal with it. Anyone stating that fact is right, and not a fool. Deny the cards existence, and you are playing the game at a lower competitive level.

[-]

I Build my decks preparing for the worst (aka Bombazar, Control decks and Rush). This way my decks will be best suited for any matchup they are thrown into, giving me the most optimalized result.

You have very good points here but these three sentences caught my eye. In this case, being better is all opinions since it can't be objectively measured (as opposed to a tensile strength of a steel bar can be, for example), and that's a fact. I personally think meta without Bombazar is the best. I also prefer that clamp is weakened some how. This makes the gameplay more diverse since decks have this way better chance at competing each other while not focusing on the over-lord known as Bombazar.

I do respect your opinion that Bombazar meta is the best and the decks within that meta, but I definitely disagree with you on that. A deck that does well in a Bombazar meta but doesn't do well in a non-Bombazar is not automatically a better deck - even if the decks compared were very similar ones, like 2 Starnoid decks. I agree with you on many other of your statements, like how Tajimal might work better than Syrion and Merfolk in a Bombazar-filled meta, though.

PS. Bombazar might sound like an irrelevant topic here but it's closely related to LordSommerhill's Starnoid deck in meta level. Also, I felt like I had to point out these statements.


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Re: (TCG) Wise Starnoid

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    Current date/time is 13.12.17 22:48